Going to be non-stop war for quite some volumes from hereon. Although Red Cliffs overshadows the other conflicts of the book in popular media, the wars triggered by Guan Yu's death is another exciting part of the story where the stakes run high. It's a shame the 2010 tv series pretty much skips both the Wei-Wu war and Zhuge Liang's southern campaigns.
*VOLUME 44 NOW COMPLETE. PAGE 91 WAS MISSING FROM THE CHAPTER RELEASES AND HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE VOLUME FILE.
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He could at least clear away the corpse on the way out. It's only proper guest-etiquette, you'd think.
Woohoo, the big 300!
It's nice to see an arrogant Liu Bei for once.
God, I wish I could find a historical-themed war rts that offers both strategical depth on the campaign/operation-level as well as tactical depth on the battle-level. Hegemony was a good effort, but still lacking...
Fucking Ma Liang. There's all this talk about how he's a genius in the novel and even his unique white eyebrows sort of adds to the hype that he'll be a great advisor to Liu Bei but... He can't even notice the huge blunders in military strategy that somehow Cao Pi of all people instantly recognized. So pitifully worthless. Maybe he was more geared towards civil matters, though that would then beg the question why Liu Bei took him as a counselor for an extremely costly campaign. If only
Kircheis Pang Tong were still alive...
Parents-in-laws. Being a huge pain since forever.
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You're amazing man , thanks so much for your efforts and all the energy you put in this. You're incredible
ReplyDeleteLiu Bei of all people should know how effective is the strategy of the underdog commander
ReplyDeleteA lot of people consider the southern campaigns almost like a filler, but I really like the adventurous feeling of those chapters and the more humane side of Kongming they show.
ReplyDeleteI can totally understand why they were skipped in the 2010 tv series though.
As for the conflicts between Wu and Wei, I have to agree that's just a shame (Wu in particular was really treated poorly, although Lu Meng was best dadudu).
Really? I actually really thought the chapters that followed Red Cliff really showed Kongming as just another power hungry military strategist. I had always considered him a peace-seeking fellow (given his background and upbringing) who is just trying to bring stability to the populace. But the bloody battles and executions that his army brought to people in order to take over the commandeers and Wu just made me think otherwise.
DeleteI don't think "power hungry" is really an appropriate adjective for the fictional Kongming, considering he almost refused Liu Bei's service as well as rejected to replace Liu Shan. He is definitely success driven, and he's not one to get caught over the smaller matters in life as Liu Bei is. He understands his role as a director for Shu's armies, and is more concerned with the bodies of troops as a whole than the safety of the individual soldier. And even if Shu made a strong push for Jingzhou and other territories claimed by Wu after Red Cliffs, that's not Kongming being more Machiavellian than other characters. The Shu-Wu alliance was never between two trusting parties, and both Shu and Wu were perfectly willing to gain at the sacrifice at the other. It's why I think Kongming never really held a grudge against Zhou Yu for trying to assassinate him. They both knew the game and in the end, they're just doing their job (working to benefit their state).
DeleteThe upcoming Southern campaigns will show that Kongming is just as skilled at playing a soft hand as he is playing a hard one.
I have always been a Cao CAO fan. He's level-headed. Liu Bei is just a scam artist who , for some reason , everyone thinks is virtuous . Just look at how he betrayed Sun Quan and Shu over and over again. Imperial uncle***er.
ReplyDeleteIf we're speaking just about the fictional Liu Bei, he's really not any more to blame than Sun Quan for the Wu-Shu conflict, so you can't really call his act of war a "betrayal," any more than you can call Sun Quan's conquest of Jingzhou a betrayal. Neither of the two states were willing to cede Jingzhou to the other and took actions that compromised their diplomatic standing.
DeleteOne of the funnier moments in their relationship is Sun Quan willing to "give back" Liu Bei's wife (Lady Sun) years after he stole her back in the first place (after giving her up for marriage) as a part of the peace terms, as mentioned in chapter 300. A lot of flip-flopping in terms of Wu foreign policy regarding that incident.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant how Liu Bei attacked Shu - he went in to "help" and made up some bogus excuse (triggered by Pang Tao) in order to portray Shu's governor as untrustworthy and took over the land. Zhang Song really got what he deserved but I still think it was so deceitful of Liu Bei. And he STILL wouldn't give up the commandiers in Jingzhou to Sun Quan !!!!
DeleteThe historical Liu Bei probably harboured deceitful intent right from the get-go towards his relationship with Liu Zhang, the governor of Yizhou/Shu. In the novel, however, Liu Bei shows a great deal of limp-wristed resolve about direct conquest of Shu. Although Kongming, Pang Tong, and Zhang Song all tried to dissuade him, Liu Bei's mind was still "up in the air," and it seemed as if he wanted to keep open the option of Liu Zhang willingly acting as the filial little brother and doing everything Liu Bei would ask for.
DeleteHowever, this unrealistic option was closed for good when he saw clear evidence that Liu Zhang would not trust him even as he was fighting off enemy Hanzhong troops (by supporting him with only a token force of old men), which allowed him to claim moral superiority and take over Shu.
So... whether or not it was a clear-cut "betrayal" can be put up for debate. On one hand, Liu Bei did indeed break the oath of brotherhood he swore with Liu Zhang and rob all his lands. On the other hand, it was Liu Zhang who first decided not to support the very man who was doing all the fighting for him, after being convinced by his loyalist faction at court. It's perfectly fine for someone to hold the former interpretation, but surely you can acknowledge the latter interpretation, which is the logic that the fictional Liu Bei used to resolve his moral dissonance.
Does anyone know when Zhang Fei is betrayed by his subordinates ???
ReplyDeleteWhen in the manga, you mean? Volume 43.
DeleteThanks for the reply. I'm still far from 43. But it's so odd that he dies after guan yu. GuanYu is more levelheaded so I though Zhang Fei would be first lol
DeleteYeah, it is a surprise when you put it that way. But if you read volumes 40-42, you'll understandably see Guan Yu's arrogance and pride lead him to his downfall.
DeleteWait, if Pang Tong is Kircheis and Liu Bei is Reinhardt, does that mean Cao Cao is Yang?
ReplyDeleteMind=blown
How friggin amazing is this blog... For about a decade now I've been a die-hard fan of the Three Kingdom anime/manga/novel, and never had anyone to discuss it with. Now there is a community I can be open with (albeit a small one) :) Thanks so much Hox!
ReplyDeleteSorry for the repost, actually I meant to post it here because this is the right chapter/book: Just got to the part where Liu Bei cries over emperor’s deposition and then somehow the solution is to declare himself the emperor (LOL!) .. If he is so keen on saving the Han Dynasty, why not arrange for a rescue mission and place Emperor Xian of Han as Emperor of Shu??? That would effectively legitimize Shu’s position and portray them as the rightful state. As a matter of fact, the emperor was sent off with just a couple of his own men to some far off land. He was not being guarded or watched, just thrown away. Why not go and rescue him then have him tell people how he was “forced” into giving up his throne?? It seems to me that Liu Bei is somewhat of a scammer!
ReplyDeleteHa, good point, it is amusing how nobody bothered to consider getting the emperor from Wei lands, as hard as that may actually be to pull off. But everybody in the story at this point knows Liu Bei's of imperial blood and so I don't think legitimacy was much of a concern for.
DeletePlus, as idealistic as some of the characters are, they're not naive enough to place some incompetent deposed emperor back on the throne. In China, as in many other culture, it's not enough to have royal blood, you need some sort of actual ability if you want to maintain a kingdom or empire. The question of succession at the start of the Eastern Han dynasty offers a good example of this. Nobody seriously considered making the last emperor of the Western Han dynasty (Liu Ying) the emperor again. Plenty of other contenders of the imperial Liu clan made their own personal bids for the throne, and after much struggle, it was Liu Xiu who came on top.
In the end, it all comes down to the "mandate of heaven," whether or not that individual has the merit to be emperor. At this point in the story, I think if you were to ask even the few remaining Han loyalists who had this supposed "mandate," most of them would answer Liu Bei, not Emperor Xian. So in this sense, it's really not all that "scummy" for Liu Bei to ascend to the throne. There's been plenty of historical precedents, and if there's one thing Chinese scholars love, it's using historical precedents for their arguments.
Hox's points are right on! but, realistically, the way I look at it is that both Cao Cao and Liu Bei wanted to unify China and become the chancellor (simply speaking, gain power). There is no real difference between the two in real life, the only exception is the laid back Sun Quan. Sun Quan was satisfied with his "kingdom" and just wanted Jingzhou and its Commanderies because he (rightfully) believed Wu was the one that fought the battle of red cliff and they were the ones that sacrificed the most to get Jingzhou. Interestingly and funny enough Sun Quan is the only one who lives the longest and seems to have had a much happier life than the rest. Cao Cao and Liu Bei spent most of their times fighting and going from one camp to another , whereas Sun Quan barely fought any wars and just enjoyed his life - sans stress. This is probably why he lived a long and happy life.
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